Terry Gerton I think you are perfectly suited there at the National Whistleblower Center on National Whistle Blower Day to kind of reset our memories and take us back to the beginning. How did the recognition of National Whistler Blower day start and what does it commemorate?

Stephen Kohn So back in 2010, I was researching for my book, The Whistleblower’s Handbook, a resolution that the Continental Congress had passed that we had dug up for a brief. We were looking for authority. We found this old resolution that no one had ever focused on. It specifically said it’s the duty of every inhabitant of the United States to report all frauds and crimes to the appropriate authorities as soon as possible. And they passed that on July 30, 1778. That’s why July 30th is National Whistleblower Day. So once we dug that up, I then had my law clerks and we all went crazy trying to figure out why did they pass this? There had to be a reason. And then what we discovered was that in 1777, February, about six months after Declaration of Independence, ten sailors and marines signed petitions aboard a frigate, the Warren in Providence Harbor, attacking the commander of the U.S. Navy and saying he tortured British prisoners, he was enriching himself, he was greedy, he’s a bad guy. They selected one of their number to jump ship and present the petitions to the Congress, travel without permission and present the petitions. One thing that’s of significance, and I just wanna read this is, these are working class people. This is coming from the grassroots. This isn’t like the George Washington and Samuel Adams. These are the people on the ground fighting against the British. And here’s what they wrote: they said that this commander possessed the most dangerous principles conceivable. And what were the principle that they were attacking? And here it is: that he declares that all mankind are exactly alike and that no man ever existed who could not be brought with money who could not be hired with money or do any action whatsoever for money. They viewed him as a greed driven person, not like them who were fighting for liberty. This is what was on the ground. So this guy jumps ship, goes to the Continental Congress without permission, they listen to what he has to say, and they suspend and then fire the commander of the Navy. Well, the commander’s not very happy, so he files a criminal libel suit against the whistleblowers. He’s able to capture two of them in Providence, has them thrown into jail under criminal libel, and these two write a letter back to the U.S. Continental Congress, 1770. Now, their letter could have been written by whistleblowers today, and here’s what they wrote. First, they said they’re persons who are not affluent, and whistleblower are generally not the rich and famous. Then they said this. They said that they believe it was their duty to blow the whistle, to report this. And then they report that they’re held to bail without connections and without the ability to defend themselves, which most whistleblowers find themselves in this position. Against, and these are their words, a powerful, artful person with the advantages of his offices and the great wealth he’s amassed. And they plead for help. And then Congress, on July 30th, passes America’s first, and maybe the world’s first whistleblower law. It is the duty of every inhabitant to report frauds and misconduct to the appropriate authorities. And then they go the next step. They release all the petitions. No FOIA. And these petitions are embarrassing to the US government. They’re talking about torture of prisoners. They release them all. And then they go one step further. They allocate money to hire lawyers for the two imprisoned whistleblowers. And it turned out they paid $1,400 back then. Think of that. They needed money for bullets and guns. They were facing treason charges themselves. The Continental government had almost no resources. But they allocate $1,400. And they get a great lawyer for these guys. They win their case. And that is the tradition of whistleblowing in America that has been buried. And that’s why National Whistleblower Day exists, to bring this history back.

Terry Gerton Stephen Kohn is the chair of the board of the National Whistleblower Center. It sounds almost like the more things change, the more they stay the same. We still have the same issues today. When our audience hears whistleblowers, though, they’re probably thinking about a federal employee reporting problems inside the agency. Is that where you see the bulk of activity now or is it shifting into corporate cases in fraud and finance and other places?

Stephen Kohn Well, people want to do the right thing. And if they have the ability to safely and confidentially report, they will. So federal whistleblower rights lag behind. They’re terrible. You’ll hear from other guests. We’re trying to fight and restore them. But in the private sector, they’ve really enhanced them. Anonymous, confidential filing, the ability to get significant financial awards, strong anti-retaliation, the right to go to federal court. So the impact of private sector whistleblowing has converted whistleblowers to the number one tool for law enforcement to uncover white collar crime. When we look at the different areas, for example, False Claims Act, the oldest law guaranteeing confidentiality but more important financial awards mandatory. 75% of all frauds against the government are coming directly from whistleblowers. Because they paid the whistleblower an award, they quantify their impact and we now know for the first time that this incentivization of whistleblowing has completely altered the landscape and has made the detection and successful prosecution of well-hidden white crimes possible. And as Mr. Devine and others will tell you, this needs to happen with federal employees also.

Terry Gerton One of the legislative priorities that the National Whistleblower Center is advancing is the AI Whistleblower Protection Act. What’s different about AI that requires special whistleblower protection?

Stephen Kohn We represented the OpenAI whistleblowers about 18 months ago, who came forward with the right to warn letter. These were about 24. We represented eight of them who had the courage without any known protections to step forward and to warn the American public of the dangers of AI, potential dangers. They were all within the companies. They all pretty much would support AI, but they knew of the risks. From that incident, it became absolutely clear that you need an AI whistleblower bill, a law to protect insiders, corporate employees within that industry. There’s no protections right now. In the United States, there’s no one whistleblower law. We’ve have got piecemeal for 50 years. We have one law for occupational safety, one for environment, one for food inspection, one for corporate employees, one for government fraud. So, that’s how it’s happened in the United States. So we’re just repeating what we have done for the past 45 years. We’ve identified a sector of the economy that absolutely, absolutely needs whistleblower protection. The risks are way too high. They’re in the newspapers. The risks or way too high. So there’s a bipartisan bill, Grassley. Hawley on one side, Klobuchar, Coons on the other side, and we need this bill to pass immediately. The risks are too high.

Terry Gerton When you think forward, would you advocate for a consolidated uniform approach to whistleblowing or is this sector by sector approach the smartest way to go?

Stephen Kohn When I started in whistleblower law in ’84, I definitely wanted a uniform law and urged it. But now what we’ve discovered is that this piecemeal approach, because we have a lot of them, like 70 laws, is probably the best because we’re able to align each law to the law enforcement offices that would have jurisdiction to prosecute or regulate the industries. So it really makes sense on an SEC case to go to the commission, to a money laundering case to go to FinCEN, et cetera. So the piecemeal approach, I think, ultimately aids in law enforcement. The downside is that many, many whistleblowers don’t understand how these laws work and essentially screw it up. So we are fighting with the agencies and are often in court trying to get them to understand that a whistleblower may file in the wrong office. These laws are very confusing. And so that’s what needs to happen. If anything’s gonna happen, there should be a law that essentially requires integration and cooperation with all the existing laws.

Terry Gerton And today on National Whistleblower Day, what is your message to those out there who think they may have a story?

Stephen Kohn Whistleblowers have made an absolutely incredible contribution to American democracy, to accountability, to making this country great. And that needs to be acknowledged from the day that founders of this country unanimously understood this. And just so you know, this wasn’t just a little thing. The whistleblower went to the prosecutor who prosecuted the British soldiers in the Boston Massacre and got him to support them. Samuel Adams was one of their biggest advocates, it’s in the record of the Continental Congress that he was one their biggest advocate. The leaders, the founders of this country, understood the importance of people, working people, common people. Stepping forward to ensure that there’s equal justice, that the laws are followed, and that greed does not contaminate the government of the United States.